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Offline Jewels

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Am I Crazy?
« on: 13 November 2011, 08:02:23 PM »
So I have found the different perceptions of recent events interesting and it got me thinking. (Dangerous past time, I know.) I was wondering if y'all would tell me your honest perceptions on a few things.

Now, I think everyone knows my religious/moral stance and I think most of you know why I hold that stance, but I'd like (and am asking for) you to pick apart my 'why's and give me your perception of what's really going on.
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My devotion to my belief in Jesus is such that I would not renounce it to save life, limb, or injury; my own or anyone else's. (True, my devotion has not been tested to this extent enough to count it fact, but given such testing is not practical to emulate and for the purposes of this discussion I would like to argue as if it has proven true.)

I attribute this to many separate life experience factors, some of which I know hold no proof when it comes to truth (i.e. what my parents taught me), but the experiences that I do hold as proof I consider physical manifestations. This, of course, is my perception based on my pre-conceived notions of the nature of reality, thus why I would like to know your perceptions. You may have heard these before, I don't remember who I've told.

Exhibit A: One morning my clock malfunctioned to the point that pressing any button would produce no change in the time or alarm settings. The clock still worked in telling the time, but I could not reset my alarm in order to snooze it. In my early morning frustration I prayed God would fix it. The immediate check revealed no fix so I went into a 'dialogue' with God about being stingy with His miracles. The end result was He told me to open my eyes exactly 10 min after my alarm had gone off, said I could trust Him to be my snooze button and I should trust Him to give me what I needed. And then, 10min after the problem started, He fixed my clock.

Exhibit B: God huggles me. At least that's what I've come to call the sensation. An actual physical sensation, kind of a tingling washover, that promotes peaceful/happy feelings. It happens most often when I pray and worship sincerely. Never when I pray or worship while going through the motions or out of habit. Sometimes during the normal course of the day which leads me to pray sincerely wondering what He is trying to communicate. Even as I started writing this post, I felt a huggle as a sort of 'confirmation' that He wanted me to pose this request to you.

Given these two exhibits, 1) what is your perception of the reality of them, 2)what is your opinion of my perception of them, 3)am I crazy to hold my perception as personal fact given the presented exhibits?

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Edit: if possible, please respond before reading the responses of others. I'd like your original perception, not your perception after being weighed by any others'. Putting thoughts in SPOILER tags will help. Thanks.

Offline Sudanna Susquehanna Saguenay

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2011, 09:36:39 PM »
(click to show/hide)

Edit by Jewels: spoilered to help keep perceptions original.
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Offline Jewels

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #2 on: 16 November 2011, 10:40:42 AM »
Well, I'd like to thank Nalyd for taking the time to help me look at these things from his point of view. I do hope that others will offer their thoughts. I don't want this to be an I'm right-you're wrong kind of thing, just an open dialogue between us whether for my enlightenment or for yours if not for the sake of the dialogue itself.

(click to show/hide)

Exhibit C: An instance from my husband. He was driving at night with the radio blaring on a back road in SD. It was winter so the road was icy and the road ahead went over a hill with a line of trees going along one side. He usually drove between 40 and 60mph on this road. Inexplicably he felt the sudden urge to stop his car. He slammed on the breaks immediately without really knowing why. He thought to himself "Why am I stopping". His car started sliding and came to a halt in front of a train track that 2 seconds later was occupied by a fast moving train. There was barely a foot between the front of his car and the side of the train wizzing by. When he backed up to where he had first slammed on the brakes (visible from the fallen snow) he confirmed to himself that he started stopping before the train would have been visible to him. We equate the urge to a leading of the Spirit.

Offline Vergil

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #3 on: 19 November 2011, 09:21:19 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

How many times has the clock not been fixed when prayed about? How many times have drivers died even though they have great faith?
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Offline Gonzales

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #4 on: 19 November 2011, 12:24:17 PM »
Been touched with the Noodly Appendage lately?
There are three kinds of people: the one who sees the glass half full; the one who sees the glass half empty; and the one who drinks the damn glass.
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Offline Jewels

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #5 on: 19 November 2011, 09:44:37 PM »
But V, I'm not talking about what hasn't happened. I'm talking about what has. Pastor X dying in car accident Y doesn't negate the fact that Chris couldn't see or hear a train coming, felt the urge to slam on the brakes, and slid to a stop less than a foot from the edge of where the train started passing two seconds later.

Clock A not being fixed by prayer B does not negate the fact that after a mental conversation that took exactly 10 minutes, my broken clock started working again.

I know that bias remains, but without the bias things are still 'inexplicable'. Coincidence... dumb luck... why are these concepts so much easier to 'believe' in than the actions of an advanced being we can barely understand?

Let me play devil's advocate. I recently watched the movie Thor and it brought up an interesting point. It said that the primitive culture of the Vikings would likely worship the people of Thor as gods even though they were really aliens. If this vast universe does not revolve around us and aliens do exist, who's to say there aren't any Q's in existence? Would the concept of 'God' be easier to swallow then? If Earth and the people on it were created by an alien? Who's to say someone wasn't stirring the soup?

Offline Wrath

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #6 on: 20 November 2011, 01:45:53 PM »
Quote from: "Jewels"
Now, I think everyone knows my religious/moral stance and I think most of you know why I hold that stance, but I'd like (and am asking for) you to pick apart my 'why's and give me your perception of what's really going on.

Quote from: "Vergil"
How many times has the clock not been fixed when prayed about?

Quote from: "Jewels"
But V, I'm not talking about what hasn't happened.

O RLY

[hr:ssq1d7ao][/hr:ssq1d7ao]

Although against my better judgement, which tells me not to participate in this topic, I have to ask what you are really looking for here. Is your goal here to get a group consensus that agrees that God exists? Or is it to get us to say that God has chosen you? Notwithstanding your assertions that God listens to your prayers for him to fix your alarm clock, cases where action doesn't happen are equally important to the implication of your original query.

In the old days of America's founding, your chances of spontaneously dying were slim to none. Either you were slowly experiencing a disease and knew you were probably going to die within the month, or you know an invading army was advancing and you were probably going to get shot within the month. Today we have planes, trains, and automobiles, wherein we may spontaneously die at any time for any number of reasons. By the time you reach twenty, you should be able to recall at least one very near-death experience. Perhaps the survivors of these events are a testimony of divine mercy and power, however I personally delivered a twenty minute speech on genocide last Wednesday which is a testimony, literally, 30 million times stronger that says otherwise. Isn't it just a tad bit arrogant to believe that God fixes your alarm clock and does nothing for millions of people being selected because of some aspect about them and then slaughtered by their own race?

As you well know, I am a religious person. Nalyd incorrectly believes it has something to do with tribal spirits or some such. It does not. My belief is a sort of combination of popular religion with an overly liberal and tolerant twist. That part isn't so much important as a primary concept which states that you will be placed where you need to be placed, and you will survive whether or not you want to until your role is fulfilled.

So does Chris have a purpose left in him? It's likely. Did you have some greater need for the alarm clock to work that day? That's probably coincidence. If God is omnipotent, then he already knows what's going on and praying doesn't alert him to new events nor does it cause him to feel guilty with you stressing the urgency. But that's just another belief of mine that god is not omnipotent and is prioritizing.

Offline Vergil

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #7 on: 20 November 2011, 07:36:46 PM »
Quote from: "Jewels"
I know that bias remains, but without the bias things are still 'inexplicable'. Coincidence... dumb luck... why are these concepts so much easier to 'believe' in than the actions of an advanced being we can barely understand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Because small factors could of easily been making your husband break the car, or your clock could of just been malfunctioning briefly.

I find that a more believable than an omnipotent God being like "I got dis" and fixing clocks. I'm pretty sure god's got better things to do.
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Offline Wrath

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #8 on: 21 November 2011, 11:41:04 AM »
So I hit the modify button instead of quote and blew up Jewels' post because now I can't change it back.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

In other news, this error has something to do with me not being able to view the general board, if that could be fixed speedy quick, that would be excellent...

Offline Jewels

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #9 on: 22 November 2011, 07:08:14 AM »
Quote from: "Neb"
It should be read as, your topic asked for a civil discussion regarding a reflection on your experiences. Vergil gave a reflection, but it was only argued. Therefore this seems to be a topic which is intending to make the affirmation that god is studying you very closely. I recall other arguments for that affirmation said in other places as well...
As I said before, V focused on my perspective of events, which I already knew he would disagree with. What I am interested in is V's perspective which he has gone no further to explain than 'coincidence'. "Because small factors could of easily been making your husband break the car" is a very vague way to really say "I don't know what happened, it just wasn't God".  I'm looking for what he (or anyone) thinks those "small factors" could have been. You have stated you believe we can't die before our role is fulfilled.

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I have spent the last four months studying events of the Holocaust and genocide in general. I am acutely aware of Boom and could, myself, rattle off a dozen more names of rescuers of victims.
Aware of Corrie, yes, but aware of her spiritual journey? She was not just a rescuer, she was also a victim; a Christian taken to the Nazi prison camps with her family for harboring Jews. Her father died 10 days after their arrest. She had to watch her sister wither and die a slow death of malnutrition and medical neglect. Have you read her book "The Hiding Place" or the sequel "A Tramp for the Lord"? In them she describes a very personal experience with God, miracles He performed for her, and the work she did for Him after her release.

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For you to respond to that with the claim that "He" ordered the genocide of people is offensive, concerning, and a display of pure ignorance on your part. God did not make the Holocaust, people did.
Wasn't actually talking about the Holocaust for that statement.  I was talking about the Old Testament accounts that state God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child of certain peoples as they conquered the Holy Land. Pardon my ignorance, I thought you were aware. It's one of ADoS's favorite things to use to discredit my religion.
 
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The only reason someone could accept that genocide is divine is to have a get-out-of-jail-free card and say it's beyond their control. It is not.
Wait...
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you will be placed where you need to be placed, and you will survive whether or not you want to until your role is fulfilled.
Doesn't that mean God placed them all there because that's where they needed to be (both the victims and the aggressors)? Doesn't that mean that all genocide victims had no further role to fulfill in the world save to stir future generations to action against like terrors?

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I know that the number of die-hard Jewish survivors of the Holocaust became atheists when their pleas and prayers to stop the torment went unanswered.
Because, sadly, some people cannot accept that pain and suffering also serve a purpose. God sent His own son to be beaten, tortured, and killed for the redemption of mankind. Jesus prayed that the cup be passed from him but God said 'No'. It had to be that way. It is not about praying for rescue from torture, it is about learning to see the presence of God during torture. A phrase coined by Corrie, "Thank God for the fleas!" Because the fleas were a blessing that kept the women in her barracks from being raped by the guards.

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Where was god when his father was beaten to within an inch of his life in front of him? Where was god in causing him to live on in physical torment and cause such mental distress to his son while he slowly died of typhus when no medical help, though available at the camp, was made available to him?
God never left his side. It was his own choice to pull away from God because he didn't like God's answer (or non-answer) to his prayers.

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About a week in a place of suffering and you'll be singing a different tune. Let's drop you off in a small village in Iraq where you husband beats and rapes you every night and you watch your children get shot over petty family feuds. Pray for relief. Watch it not come. Your strength is in theory and remains untested. The problems you have faced to now are, for the majority, mental. When faced with complete physical assault and social desolation and coupled by the observation that others did not suffer while you did, I will be more open to your doubtless faith.
Now there's the kicker. You're right that I haven't been tested this way. I did affirm it in the first post. I can not say for sure, on this side of great suffering, that it would not break me. But I can say for certain that it does not break everyone. For as many Jewish people that turned atheist, just as many kept the faith. For every Ellie Wiesel there is a Corrie Ten Boom who was faced with the same kinds of  trials and tortures, but ended up with a very different result. She came out so full of faith that she dedicated the rest of her life to traveling the world to spread the gospel of Jesus.

I can only hope that if placed in the same type of situation, I will be able to find the same strength of faith as Corrie had.

Offline Vergil

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Re: Am I Crazy?
« Reply #10 on: 25 November 2011, 11:35:42 PM »
Quote from: "Jewels"
Quote from: "Neb"
It should be read as, your topic asked for a civil discussion regarding a reflection on your experiences. Vergil gave a reflection, but it was only argued. Therefore this seems to be a topic which is intending to make the affirmation that god is studying you very closely. I recall other arguments for that affirmation said in other places as well...
As I said before, V focused on my perspective of events, which I already knew he would disagree with. What I am interested in is V's perspective which he has gone no further to explain than 'coincidence'. "Because small factors could of easily been making your husband break the car" is a very vague way to really say "I don't know what happened, it just wasn't God".  I'm looking for what he (or anyone) thinks those "small factors" could have been. You have stated you believe we can't die before our role is fulfilled.


I dunno, maybe he heard the many-ton train barreling down infront of him and his parietal lobe sent a message down to his foot being like "brake that shit". Maybe he had a nerve twitch that made his foot go down on the break pedal, maybe he had to sneeze so he slowed the car down. I don't know, I wasn't fucking there, so I would appreciate if you didn't go say "VERGIL CANT EXPLAIN WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED SO IT MUST BE GOD".
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