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Offline Dintiradan

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Building Pyrog
« on: 01 December 2014, 02:04:32 AM »
Alright Calruffians, listen up.

As you're all sick of hearing by now, I'm having issues with my current computer, Motrax. I need to buy or build a new one eventually, and apparently this 'Cyber' Monday is a good day to do that? So I'll be looking for parts today (or I will be, after I get some sleep). Maybe I'll buy all the parts I need, maybe I won't. I'm not in a huge rush.

Anyway, people here seem to have Opinions when it comes to gaming rigs, so if you got 'em, post 'em. If you want.

Offline Wisdom

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #1 on: 01 December 2014, 07:06:59 PM »
You got it.


This is my build for K
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131876 - Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121779 - Graphics card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139010 - Power supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113284 - Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236070 - Hard drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231589 - RAM x2
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181036 - Water cooler
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133223 - Case (amazing airflow)

Brand/other Recommendations:

Always go with an ASUS motherboard. They are wonderful and never break BUT THIS IS THE ONLY THING ASUS CAN MAKE, don't get a graphics card  or any other component from them. (I know, I have one. It's actually pretty good, so I got lucky, but my history with them has been poor, so I'm still eeeehhh).

Go with an AMD processor. Despite what Nikki will tell you (which is basically, somehow even though the numbers don't back it up, they're magic with games!!1!), the spec for AMD processors are on par or better for the average, and even upper end, computers for less money vs Intel. I mean, my god, look at this, I didn't even arrange this lineup and it's embarrassing. Lessor speed for twice the price and half the longevity. AMD has always performed absolutely beautifully for me. Intel becomes better at creating processors at the extreme-experimental realm of processors, so if you want to pay a grand for a 5.0GHz chip, then yeah, look for Intel.

Try to get a Western Digital hard drive. They've been around since 1847 and Know What They Are Doing by now. Please do not get a Seagate unless you wish to have the drive fail in the first year.

Always go with NVIDIA chipset for your graphics card, NOT AMD, which is horrible in all ways. Beyond that, my experience with manufactures is:
MSI - Really good.
Gigabyte - Good.
Zotac - Fair
ASUS- Fair/poor
EVGA - quite poor
Really, if you get the G series you want (probably 780 (or 980 if you're wealthy)) if you get a graphics card from there with good ratings, they're always fantastic.

You pretty much need a water block for any kind of processor over 3GHz these days if you plan on using your processor for high-performance gaming, computer graphic creation, BOINC, etc. The good news is they are amazingly more simple than they were ten years ago. With this one I have, you just screw the block onto the processor just like you would a stock cooler. There's also a common setup where you remove the stock cooler dock with a bracket for the water cooler so the screws will fit better. Either way, they're pretty simple and increase the longevity of your CPU by years. this one looks like it's the closest one to what I got that is still in production.

If you're not already aware, there's a nifty little program called Open Hardware Monitor, that Sy can point you to. For me, its primary function is to monitor the temperatures in my motherboard, CPU, and graphics cards as well as setting the fan speed for the graphics cards. With a lot of games and BOINC this is an essential program that keeps my computer from bursting into flames doing high-end operations.

Offline Sudanna Susquehanna Saguenay

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #2 on: 04 December 2014, 08:48:08 AM »
Quote
Go with an AMD processor. Despite what Nikki will tell you (which is basically, somehow even though the numbers don't back it up, they're magic with games!!1!), the spec for AMD processors are on par or better for the average, and even upper end, computers for less money vs Intel.

I'm not sure which exactly you think is better, and I'm over here in integrated-laptop-component land, but I do know that game devs will sometimes design their engines specifically for particular graphics drivers. That might explain whatever difference isn't seen in the numbers, if there is one.
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Offline Arancaytar

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #3 on: 05 January 2015, 09:01:42 AM »
Great timing; I managed to fuck up my desktop as well last week. Almost two years since that last happened...

I haven't quite decided what happens next, depending on what is salvageable - I might end up using similar parts to what Neb suggested. (What did you end up using, Dinti?)

Probably going to reuse the disks (including operating system) and graphics card if only the mainboard is fried. Definitely getting a new case though; the old one is ancient and bulky and doesn't really cool well.
"Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever, for one moment, accepts it."

Offline transmitter failure

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #4 on: 05 January 2015, 06:08:20 PM »
I'm sorry about your computer, but yay we get to talk about components more!

So, while Neb/Sy will of course point you in the direction of AMD for your processor, I'm going to bombard you with links which suggest that Intel is the better option. Yes, AMD processors can have more cores, and can be clocked higher, but they're still not as good, overall. Of course, if you're going to be doing a lot of number-crunching, or rendering large files and really NEED 8 cores, then an AMD processor isn't the worst choice. That said, here's why you should do your research and consider getting an i5 - I won't recommend an i7 because who needs that many cores? Plus, the i5 is in a really nice sweet price/performance spot anyway.

Here's why I'd recommend you go Intel:

1) This comment on Reddit talks about 3 serious issues AMD chips have, compared to their Intel rivals. It talks about power consumption and heat; poor IPC performance (which means even in multi-threaded applications, the AMD 8350 lags behind the similarly priced i5 4460); the age of the platform: http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2r6g1g/are_amd_cpus_really_that_much_worse_than_intel/cnd6lne

2) In terms of price, you can get an i5 4460 for £136 right now. The AMD FX 8350 is priced at £126. Of course, one of those processors needs a waterblock sticking on top of it, so factor that in to your price, and the i5 actually comes out cheaper. This comment, again from reddit (but with some excellent benchmarking videos) shows that to get a 8350 with a cooler and mobo to really push it to i5-competing speeds would cost around the same as buying a top-tier i5 (the 4670K) with a nice motherboard to overclock that. http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1qs2ku/discussion_i54670k_vs_fx8350/cdfwqex

3) Here are some benchmarks that show that even in multi-core performance, the i5 matches or outperforms the 8350. Considering that it trumps the AMD chip in single-core performance, even just matching multi-core performance puts it out on top...

- http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/368/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350_vs_Intel_Core_i5_i5-4460.html - this one suggests that in multi-threaded applications, the 8350 is around 2% faster. Compare that to the 83% gap that Intel holds in single-core applications, and wonder why you considered the 8350 :p

- http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-4460-vs-AMD-FX-8350/2310vs1489 - this puts the two closer together, but rather damningly states that 'the FX-8350 could be a good fit for specific server use cases but for general consumer use, which is single and dual core intensive, Intel's two year old i5-2500K will deliver better performance'. Considering we're now on 4xxx intel CPUs, going for an 8350 probably isn't the best choice. Take a look at the summary for the i5-4460 too; ' In terms of effective speed the 4460 is exactly on a par with the average of the top ten user rated CPUs'. Pretty nice for an entry-level i5!

- http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/test-of-cpu-for-gaming-30-cpus-compared.200132/ - these charts suggest that not only do several i5 processors beat out the FX-9350 and 8350, but an i3 4150 does too! Considering you can pick one of those up for £90 as opposed to the £130 of the 8350, it's something to consider if value for money is something you want, considering you get a newer CPU (with i5/i7 upgradabilit)y, 50% single-core speed, and a much more energy-efficient piece of kit.

- http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4690-vs-AMD-FX-8350 CPUboss is a really respected comparison site, so I'll chuck this in. Looking at the 4690 alone also shows great benchmarking charts: http://cpuboss.com/cpu/Intel-Core-i5-4690 I'll also note that an i5 4690 is £168 at the moment (amazon.co.uk), whilst the AMD 8350, with the watercooler Neb suggested is £170 (£125 for the CPU, plus ~£46 for a Corsair H55 watercooling system). For almost the exact same price, then, you get a much better all-rounder that beats the 8350 in almost every test!

4) This is more just to back up my claims earlier about not needing a watercooler with an i5 processor. Despite what Neb said above, you certainly do not need water-cooling if you play with speeds over 3ghz. I'm running 3.4ghz right now with a stock cooler, and rarely get over 60 degrees. I ran Intel burn test just now - a program that uses all cores of your CPU to their maximum in order to stress test it for errors and for stability - while I wrote this post. The highest temperature I recorded was 65 degrees. That's with a stock cooler, one intake fan, and one exhaust fan. Try doing the same with an AMD chip.

Why do you think intel have such a huge portion of the market if AMD is clearly the best solution to all CPU problems? Why do you think AMD are so much cheaper if they're better processors? Let me summarise - the i5, from the 4460 (which price-matches the 8350), through to the 4690K all perform much better in single-thread applications. In multi-threaded applications, they perform insignificantly poorer. They're much newer (and you'll get better upgradability from your motherboard as a result), draw less power, make less heat, and they don't require after-market cooling, which brings their cost down to almost-AMD (or better!) levels. This isn't just me being an intel fanboy - if AMD were to have better CPUs, I'd have gone with one. I value price/performance, and nobody wants to chuck money away. The intel line-up just surpasses anything AMD can offer.

Also note that several AMD graphics cards are actually pretty good, and I'd recommend the 280 and 290 especially for providing really good bang for your buck. Personally, I'll always use Nvidia and I swear by my 970, but you could do worse than a nice 290 in your box. Just research first!!

(Also, as an aside, apart from thinking ASUS aren't that bad, liking Gigabyte and EVGA, and recommending a 970 rather than a 980, I'm on the same page as Neb about just about everything else. The reason I suggest a 970 over a 980 is simply price/performance. That said, there are a batch of newer 9xx cards coming out, so maybe wait and see if any of those take your fancy? I'm actually not trying to make anybody buy subpar stuff because I actually rather like you all. And, well, the above should speak for itself.)

And, a final reminder - higher clockspeeds and greater cores do not make a better processor. For many reasons. Here's an ELI5 of what a processor is, and why IPC is more important: http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2q1dr1/an_explanation_of_what_makes_a_cpu_more_or_less/


Offline Dintiradan

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #5 on: 05 January 2015, 10:21:24 PM »
http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/p/y7FYwP Most if not all of the parts I got are here. There might be some minor differences, I dunno. I didn't get the monitor 'cause I missed the $50 sale. Remarks:

- Cost was the primary concern in all of this. I splurged in a couple of areas (having an SSD is nice, and eventually I won't have access to my sister's PS3 to play my Blu-Rays) but the overall goal was "good enough".
- Nikki and Neb and whoever else will keep on arguing. I basically told myself that I wanted at least four cores and at least 3 GHz. I remember the price gap between the cheaper options and what I got not being that big, maybe I found a good deal?
- Water cooler probably isn't necessary, but it wasn't that expensive. *shrugs*
- The motherboard doesn't have integrated graphics, and thus no monitor ports. Normally wouldn't be an issue, but Debian refused to boot with my new video card. After spending far too much time installing different versions of Debian with non-free firmware added, I just put in my old video card, installed the new drivers, and replaced it with the new one. Sound was also an issue, but easier to fix.
- The case is cramped with both a large video card and the cooler, just barely able to close. One that's even an inch wider would be nice. Of course, not an issue if you don't have a water cooler.
- I'm able to make everything work with a non-modular PSU, and there's enough space for all the spare cords. Was a bit of a pain transferring stuff from my old drives; I had to disconnect power from my disc drive to do everything in one go. If you can find a modular PSU for a comparable price, go for it.

Offline Arancaytar

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #6 on: 07 January 2015, 11:21:22 AM »
Quote
So, while Neb/Sy will of course point you in the direction of AMD for your processor, I'm going to bombard you with links which suggest that Intel is the better option.

I'm kind of entrenched in AMD already, mostly due to cost.
"Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever, for one moment, accepts it."

Offline transmitter failure

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #7 on: 07 January 2015, 04:49:59 PM »
£130 vs £142 is pretty much peanuts when you consider you're getting a newer chip (by 2 years), massively better single-core performance, on-par multi-core performance, and lower TDP, less heat (and therefore less noise) but it is obviously your call.

At least I had fun doing the research. :(


Offline Wisdom

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #8 on: 07 January 2015, 09:09:19 PM »
The main reason that I'm interested in AMD is that it's been more reliable for me. I haven't had a problem with the processors (of which I have about six or seven at this point), the heat has been good and what you would expect for the performance (if you need more than a stock cooler, you're probably going to want to move all the way up to liquid cooling anyway, which is silent), and I'm more familiar with the chipsets - which are named much easier to remember things.

Obviously, the performance is great. Intel also has good performance and, unless you're doing grid computing, neither brand's processor is going to be your bottleneck. If you're doing gaming, the bottleneck is usually the graphics card. If you're doing CGI, your bottleneck is probably your RAM. So, in lieu of that, the next object of preference is probably going to be price.

For the average consumer with no history/preference of either brand, the notable advantages are going to be naming conventions, price, and that AMD is not as large of a company.

Offline Sudanna Susquehanna Saguenay

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #9 on: 08 January 2015, 05:43:49 PM »
I, on the other hand, have to resort to third-party russian drivers for my AMD graphics card, because the normal, official ones are broken. . .
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Offline Arancaytar

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #10 on: 13 January 2015, 02:21:26 AM »
unless you're doing grid computing, neither brand's processor is going to be your bottleneck. If you're doing gaming, the bottleneck is usually the graphics card. If you're doing CGI, your bottleneck is probably your RAM. So, in lieu of that, the next object of preference is probably going to be price.

This. As long as I don't put something completely underpowered in there, gaming performance and responsiveness during multi-tasking is going to be mostly affected by what I spend on the graphics and the memory.

(Of course, for the graphics, Linux driver support is a big concern. I've had lots of issues with my Nvidia card in the past, but that's only partly due to Nvidia having bad Linux support and partly due to me having an outdated main board but still insisting on running the latest kernel.)
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Offline Jewels

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Re: Building Pyrog
« Reply #11 on: 15 January 2015, 09:32:35 PM »
Makes me wish I knew more than nothing about hardware.

 

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